Yesterday, new country list was released. Few things that are included in this first version:
Some countries were grouped together. I say some, because some of the groups might be regrouped, some more groups will probably be added in the future and some might be even disbanded.
For now, these groups do not have effect on country count (that will surely change) and only have visual purpose - and of course, they changed the order of countries in the list. We agreed on somehow mixed territorial-historical parametres when we decide what should be included where.
Second change are separate lists for three new categories:
Ancient coins - listing only ancient country coinages. Non UN states - states that have limited recognition and are not part of the UN. Micronations - these speak for themselves.
Non UN states and Micronations are for now counted into country count. This will change in the future. One of the main ideas is to make two counts: Number of countries Number of coin-minting entities
This way, we can skip politically motivated discussions of what is and what is not a country, while retaining the possibility of some statistics and diminishing the sometimes painfull loss of "number of countries owned".
You probably noticed that we have many new flags and two new countries.
First is Abkhazia, which was moved from Exonumia into Non UN states (for now, it adds into country count)
Second is result of China split, so now, we have Ancient China, and more medieval one.
That is all for now, do not hesitate to give us ideas. This is not a final version and many things can change even faster than I will be able to react in the forum thread announcement.
Not the same count. 1 new listing already and another new one incoming.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
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I already asked for. Xavier was not sure but I confirmed this would be better.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
During our talks we spotted an timeline issue similar to China - Empire. As also referee of China, I was able to solve it, but India is ruled by another referee. Nepal shares the same issue as ell for now. Anyway I have to talk with him for various purposes.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
It seems no problem on Computer but On my Iphone there is a bug where flags are not displayed correctly
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I think the new list is a great improvement. I would move British Antarctic Territory to Non UN states, as only the UK, France, Australia, New Zealand, and Norway recognize the claims of each other as to Antarctic sovereignty. The UN does not recognize any claims of Antarctic sovereignty.
I would also eventually establish Indonesia provinces, made up of Riau and West Irian, which each had a different currency than the rest of Indonesia, which used only banknotes at the time.
i had to laugh tho...in an attempt to be non political we are using the UN as a standard? with the exception of FAO and maybe WHO, the UN as a standard for non politicism is a bit like the fat kid guarding the birthday cake.
i will be not sad when the UN is sent to the trash bins of history. and neither will the ghosts of millions of the UNs victims in Asia and Africa...
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Looks good! Nice improvement!
Can we also put together Rhodesia, Rhodesia and Nyasaland and Southern Rhodesia?
Personally I should put the 'non UN states' under the normal countries, but no big deal.
the flag issue lasted for 30 min only, please refresh the page if still affected;
please provide more explanations over Indonesian provinces;
overseas territories are not affected by non-UN states, as they're considered as territories, and the main section says again "countries and territories";
I personally suggested some changes to avoid such issues, as proposing to create a second drop-down list for each specific grouping lists;
there is no better standard than the United Nations membership and observators;
I like the idea to create specific headings for paranumismatic items, aka. Tokens and Exonumia;
we also have to take care of some specific issues due to splitted territories like did Rhodesia & Nyassaland, and Rhodesia, in the provided examples;
is the move of non-UN countries a suggestion for replacing them closer to the countries and territories?or a suggestion to merge them?
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Back in february we had an entire thread about Irian Jaya and Riau. it is just as valid now as it was then. It will be nice to see it finally acted on.
Library Media Specialist, columnist, collector, and gardener...
Israel was created in 1948, and not on full Palestine land. Palestine coinage was pre 1948 pre Israel. State of Palestine is still there and it's recognized by over 100 countries, with limited membership in UN.
So they are still 2 different states.
I'd avoid long discussions about it, and just split them up, as the simplest solution.
Just one note. I'm thinking about novices here. Would it be an idea to have a duplicate of the country in the main country list as well as in a sub category. For example, I was looking up some coins from Sarawak yesterday. It was gone from where it usually is, because it's been moved to a sub category of Malaysia (which is of course correct) I knew where to look because I knew that Sarawak was part of what is now Malaysia, but a novice might get a bit confused when they don't see Sarawak under the S part of the country list.
Quote: "neilithic"That's understandable, it was just a thought.
Another question. Is it possible to get it so we can collapse the menus in our own view so we can only see the parent countries?
It is colapsable from the third level (now it is not seen/not done yet) - for example German states will be.
If this changes in the future, I am not sure, we can discuss it.
It would be handy so you can leave just the areas you collect open and cut down the space that the others you don't collect takes up.
For example. I collect the Malaysian coins Sarawak, North Borneo, Malaya and Straits Settlements. I would like Malaysia open to view all the sub-countries. However I don't collect German coins so I would like to be able to collapse that one so I can just see "Germany" rather than all the sub countries.
Curaçao and Aruba under Netherlands Antilles? - Also makes sense. Maybe all of them will be under Netherlands in some way.
About hiding parts you do not collect - this will be solvable somehow differently (hiding stuff you do not want) and maybe even country whole country list could be made personalized. (Some saved up search setting for country list)
PS: Personalized country list was one of my first dream-ideas for this restructure, thanks for bringing it back to mind!
This is just an idea but would it be possible to change the way countries are named in the catalogue to the offical names? For example United States becoming United States of America, Australia becoming Commonwealth of Australia and so on.
I guess it's not so good. There can have naming issues according to various names. Thailand was formerly named as Siam. France was most of the time the French Republic, but also the French Empire under Napoleon I & Napoleon III, and a restored French Kingdom under Louis XVIII, Charles X and Louis-Philippe I. Same issues for former kingdoms or empires which became republics like Italy, Yugoslavia, Russia, Austria/Hungary, Germany...
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Australian Coin Info"This is just an idea but would it be possible to change the way countries are named in the catalogue to the offical names? For example United States becoming United States of America, Australia becoming Commonwealth of Australia and so on.
That's a bit of a mouthful, is there really anyone that refers to Australia as the "Commonwealth of Australia"? Just have them listed as what they're referred to on their coins, or what they walk in as at the opening ceremony at the Olympic games.
I'd like to see the old colonies being grouped under their 'home country'.
Note that this isn't a political statement, but if there is a separate 'country' on Numista for the colony (i.e. French Cochinchina and Cambodia), then Cambodia can be on it's own, while Fr. Cochinchina would be under France.
re: "I'd like to see the old colonies being grouped under their 'home country'.
Note that this isn't a political statement, but if there is a separate 'country' on Numista for the colony (i.e. French Cochinchina and Cambodia), then Cambodia can be on it's own, while Fr. Cochinchina would be under France."
My personal preference would be to group countries according to their physical location. If I was trying to find countries on the list, I would look where the country actually is, rather than have to research who was responsible for it at that time.
If you really want to have both listing under the colonial power and the actual territory, we may also create duplicate links referring both to the same listing using the shortcut option.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
We have to have a large flexibility with position of countries, no only the "yyy under xxx", but the possibility of having a country accessible from several sections. Typical for former colonial empires. We want to access to Equatorial Africa from Africa and from France, without judging which is right, both are historicaly true.
My proposition for Austria (sorry I posted on french forum so the pic is in french):
About 22 countries, some a single coin, other very important (e.g. Salzburg).
V means menu to open.
Black are not countries but sections to order the whole thing.
Red are existing Austria and Habsburg.
Blue Austrian Netherlands that should be accessible both from here and Belgium (or Low countries or whatever).
Green and violet are new countries. Green are currently in Austrian States as currencies, violet in German States also as currencies, and have to been accessible from German States. For Alsace , we could add Murbach & Luders which was administrated by Leopold from Tyrol. They also have to be reachable from France (I did not give much thought to Alsace and put here only the Ensisheim coinage under Austrian Authority).
Just a small idea of what German States could become !!!
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
So, is the general principle to have a list of modern states at the top level and under them any earlier states/political entities that existed on their territory?
Would we, then, have:
- German East Africa under Tanzania (and possibly other African countries)?
- Ruanda-B/Urundi under Belgian Congo, as in the SCWC, or under Congo, D.R., or under both Rwanda and Burundi?
- Congo - Rep. under Congo - D.R.?
Would you list Crimea (Crimean Khanate, 1441–1783) under Ukraine (or w/e), or is that too far back? Crusader States under Syria/Israel?
What about the medieval Islamic caliphates/sultanates? How are those going to be handled?
Israel was created in 1948, and not on full Palestine land. Palestine coinage was pre 1948 pre Israel. State of Palestine is still there and it's recognized by over 100 countries, with limited membership in UN.
So they are still 2 different states.
I'd avoid long discussions about it, and just split them up, as the simplest solution.
Without being xenophobe there is no State of Palestine. It was British mandate of Palestine and now it's the state of Israel. No reason to be divided. Please don't involve here politics and hate.
Concerning the State of Palestine, it exists but didn't mint coins yet. A major part of countries in the UN recognize this state. However for now we can consider Israel in the continuity of British Palestine (which rename may be useful) as the Israeli currency is also on use in the newly-created State of Palestine (more known in Western countries as Palestinian Authority territories I guess)
Concerning Congo, the Republic should be a sublisting of BEAC, not Democratic Republic as they are 2 neighbouring states from 2 different colonial powers (CR = French Equatorial Africa, CDR = Belgian Congo)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Ancient India and Ancient Nepal will be moved, maybe they will have to be splitted somehow. We are dealing with that.
So, is the general principle to have a list of modern states at the top level and under them any earlier states/political entities that existed on their territory?
Not in general. Sometimes it is not very good or problematic to have them like this. We would like to use such groups only where it is very clear.
Nice example of non-problematic group is Greece grouped with Crete and Ionian Islands.
I am also not sure when it happened, but Gauls are now a group within Ancient section and Islamic states have a new flag.
I contacted sujit to have more news about this. The Ancient Indian era is due tu end between 600 & 650. Nepal will move as well, as similar to India in this system.
I merged the Celtics as I know they are all at least partly Celtic. And please note that I plan to move all Greek and Roman colonial coinages to the belonging country (Greece or Roman provinces)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "chomp-master"Concerning the State of Palestine, it exists but didn't mint coins yet. A major part of countries in the UN recognize this state. However for now we can consider Israel in the continuity of British Palestine (which rename may be useful) as the Israeli currency is also on use in the newly-created State of Palestine (more known in Western countries as Palestinian Authority territories I guess)
Concerning Congo, the Republic should be a sublisting of BEAC, not Democratic Republic as they are 2 neighbouring states from 2 different colonial powers (CR = French Equatorial Africa, CDR = Belgian Congo)
This is a joke am I right? What newly created state of Palestine?
Quote: "chomp-master"Concerning the State of Palestine, it exists but didn't mint coins yet. A major part of countries in the UN recognize this state. However for now we can consider Israel in the continuity of British Palestine (which rename may be useful) as the Israeli currency is also on use in the newly-created State of Palestine (more known in Western countries as Palestinian Authority territories I guess)
Concerning Congo, the Republic should be a sublisting of BEAC, not Democratic Republic as they are 2 neighbouring states from 2 different colonial powers (CR = French Equatorial Africa, CDR = Belgian Congo)
This is a joke am I right? What newly created state of Palestine?
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Even the common sense can tell to anyone that a city cannot be the capital of two different states. If your reference is a wikipedia page and the biased UN than I can understand your claims.
I won't launch a political debate. But no matter current Palestine is a state or not, they don't have their own currency, and in the beginnings of the British Palestine split, the remnants were annexed by the bigger neighbours (Egypt, Jordan), making Israel alone as inheriting the powers from the British mandate.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
If modern Palestinian institutions would be able to have their own coinage, of course this would lead to clear changes (in the classification and in the name of current Palestine listing).
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
It would be like Hutt River, just a self-proclaimed country with own coinage and with support of arab countries from UN. You are a french speaker, am I right? Spend just minutes reading Larousse edition 1925 about this problem or anything before UN foundation and you won't need wikipedia and UN. The history cannot be changed with UN's resolutions.
Can we get some structure in the tokens too?
I for insteads would like to filter on transport tokens, or telephone tokens, but maybe also tax tokens and like the other topic, shopping cart tokens.
It seems strange to me that French dependencies (at least some of them) are grouped under France, and British dependencies are not grouped under United Kingdom.
I think Faroe Islands and Greenland should be listed under Denmark, especially since they are now officially constituent countries of the Realm of Denmark.
I would also list the BES Islands under Netherlands as they are officially special municipalities of the European portion of the Netherlands and did not issue coins until this change from part of the Netherlands Antilles.
I would list Netherlands Antilles and Aruba under Netherlands as they were (Antilles) and are (Aruba) constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Curacao belongs wherever Netherlands Antilles goes or remains, as the official name was Curacao and Dependencies, later Territory of Curacao, and included all the Netherlands Antilles, not just the island of Curacao. It remains to be seen how Curacao and Sint Maarten as constituent countries will be treated once they agree on using the Caribbean guilder instead of the Netherlands Antilles guilder.
Quote: "Coinman48"I think Faroe Islands and Greenland should be listed under Denmark, especially since they are now officially constituent countries of the Realm of Denmark.
I would also list the BES Islands under Netherlands as they are officially special municipalities of the European portion of the Netherlands and did not issue coins until this change from part of the Netherlands Antilles.
I would list Netherlands Antilles and Aruba under Netherlands as they were (Antilles) and are (Aruba) constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Curacao belongs wherever Netherlands Antilles goes or remains, as the official name was Curacao and Dependencies, later Territory of Curacao, and included all the Netherlands Antilles, not just the island of Curacao. It remains to be seen how Curacao and Sint Maarten as constituent countries will be treated once they agree on using the Caribbean guilder instead of the Netherlands Antilles guilder.
I generally like it and once I get used to it I think it will be much easier to use. It's too long of a thread to read in it's entirety so please forgive me if these questions have already been dealt with.
Why is Czech Republic the parent country of Bohemia and Moravia instead of both having a child relationship under Czechoslovakia? And why, if we already have a listing for Bohemia & Moravia is there a separate listing for Bohemia and then one for Moravia? If the total acreage of both countries can be considered to be suitable to be listed under Czech Republic then what justification can there be for the two smaller components to have separate and seemingly redundant listings? Are these changes new or did I just overlook them before?
I understand that it's historically an area which has had somewhat fluid boundaries so it's quite possible that there may be legitimate and well researched reasons for all of this but my knee jerk reaction is to think "300 club". I know I'm not alone in having suspicions that some of the newly created countries owe more to boosting egos than functional necessity.
Maybe it's not the case in this particular example but I hope you folks can understand that those of us not interested in acquiring coins for the sake of acquiring coins have genuine reservations about the constant push for new countries. I want an easily navigable catalog, not a numismatic bingo card.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: "pnightingale"...
I understand that it's historically an area which has had somewhat fluid boundaries so it's quite possible that there may be legitimate and well researched reasons for all of this but my knee jerk reaction is to think "300 club". I know I'm not alone in having suspicions that some of the newly created countries owe more to boosting egos than functional necessity.
Maybe it's not the case in this particular example but I hope you folks can understand that those of us not interested in acquiring coins for the sake of acquiring coins have genuine reservations about the constant push for new countries. I want an easily navigable catalog, not a numismatic bingo card.
Hello,
I have somehow the feeling that you will jump of your chair later on ! The number of countries, if I follow well the ongoing changes, is going to burst to levels that will send the xxx country club to a remote souvenir.
I wish the Austrian States to be replaced by the corresponding number of countries. Salzburg coinage for example certainly deserves that status. It means the Austria could change from 3 "countries" to ca 20 ... , same with Italian States, Hungarian, and much more significant, the German States etc. Absolutely no thought of race for numbers, but as you wish, a better catalogue.
As for the number of countries, the 300 club fellows will have to recount their countries during some transition period and create the ... 500 or 1000 countries club
Regards,
André
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
Agree about the Netherlands and Denmark. Good points, thanks!
As for Czech republic/Czechoslovakia/Bohemia - first of all - all those 5 countries were there before. It is hard to make one single rule for such groups. So far, we came with mixed teritorrial and political continuity. With territorial having slight advantage.
Czechoslovakia cannot be under Czech Republic, since where would you then put Slovakia? Under Czech republic too?
Bohemia & Moravia (WW2 German protectorate) could politically fall under Czechoslovakia, but since Slovakia separated actually a day earlier, and then protectorate was created only on area of today's Czech Republic, we decided to have it in there.
Bohemia is another matter. Political continuity is somehow lacking breath but exists. Ok, but territorially, Bohemia included parts of Austria, Germany and Poland. And on the top of that, Bohemia will have massive structure on it's own, so having it under Czech Republic would be hingly unpractical.
Still, this is just the first phase and many other things will be added a repaired if wrong.
Quote: "Andy289"I saw most of the ancient countries has been moved under their parent country. Same thing should be done for Judea, moved under Israel.
In this case, "most" is just Ancient India and Ancient Nepal and these two just have not been moved into Ancient coins category yet.
I´ve noticed that a new country list structure was ongoing, because of the search that now has 2 repeated Austrias, 2 Germany, etc.
Check it through the advanced search. If possible, correct it.
- BES Islands should be on 2nd level of Netherlands or Netherlands Antilles, right?
- Byzantium Empire should be moved to ancient coins
- Central Asia as well.
- Cilician Armenia as well. Or should it be under Armenia?
- Crimea moved to ancient coins
- Crusader States
- Hunnic Empire
- Islamic States
- etc...
Well, or at least state what do you mean by Ancient coins? Until what century?
Also, I may understand some would consider a bit offensive to see Palestine under Israel. There is a modern unrecognized state named Palestine, and there was a Mandatory Palestine (period of which it refers to the coins that were issued back then, and that is under Israel).
To avoid any kind of misinterpretation, I would then recommend to change the name to Palestine (British) or Palestine (British Mandate), something that clears up any doubts between the same-name, but within different period of time. This topic will be raised in the future several times, for sure...
Palestine issue was already raised and a name change is the best idea.
Ancient/Middle ages boundary is somehow floating one. One of the divisions is fall of Rome subsequent change to Byzantine empire. Different states have or will have their boundary elsewhere in some decisive year/change in that country.
Central asia will have to be solved as it is some mixture.
Concerning Ancient coins, this group of listings is intended for Antique era currencies only, and as Jarcek said, the Antique era is floating. Central Asia is a ragbag of various eras and its Antique coinages are going to be split. Cilician Armenia, Crimea, Crusader States, Islamic States... are all Medieval. And even not personally sure, Hunnic Empire has finally been considered as Medieval.
Maybe a rename as "Antique coins"?
I'm working with the concerned referees to prepare the move of the last Antique countries.
And as said before, Judea is an Antique country which can't remain linked to Israel in the current system, but maybe later.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Same as Ancient Coins we should create something for medieval coins.
Rougly Ancients coins are described to be any coin from BC up to about the year 500 or so.
Then you have early medieval (also called dark ages) from around 500-750.
Still quite unresearched in numismatics, not so many coins made during this time. Coins started from the mediterranean region and slowly moved north.
And then the Medieval times wich is from about 750 to 1450
After around 1450 the Taler appeared and it is deamed as being the modern times of coinage.
So basically what I suggest is that we include the following country categories:
- Ancient coins
- Early Medieval 500-750
- Medieval 750-1450
- Countries and territories
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Well... this may lead to some secondary splits again, not always easy to manage. Furthermore, the Thaler is a nice reference for German states and associate, but not all countries. How would you split France - Kingdom and France - Feudal, for example? And how to classify other Indian listings? And the worst example: is it possible to split China - Empire cast coinage? (only the cast coinage issue, not the late imperial struck coinage with Western machinery)
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I failed to understand the consistency of the actual system. If India and Nepal has ancient coins and they are listed under their parent country same should be done for all countries that have ancient coins or Nepal and India ancient should be removed from the current list and added in the ancient coins section.
Quote: "chomp-master"I'm working with the concerned referees to prepare the move of the last Antique countries.
Before asking for consistency, read well.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "Jarcek" You asked same question an hour and half ago.
I told you some time ago that I am not crazy but you are convinced by that so I won't try to change your mind.
It was not a question, it was a reaction at chomp's post that said Judea is not under Israel but it's good meanwhile there are ancient countries not listed under ancient coins section. For me this is lack of consistency.
Quote: "chomp-master"Before asking for consistency, read well.
I read very well but what do you present is just on the fly modifications. I can't see any reason to deliberately create a lack of consistency and than to say "I will fix that". The truth is that administration start this task without a plan or some certain rules about how this is gonna work and now you are start to improvise. So my failure to understand the current arrangement of the countries and the lack of consistency should not be so surprising for anyone. Just read the posts in this thread and you must admit that now it's a mess and anyone argue where should be the things. I still should not ask for consistency because I didn't read well?
You asked me why is not Judea under Israel when Nepal ancient and India ancient are there. I answered that this is because Nepal ancient and India ancient were not moved yet into Ancient coins category.
90 minutes later, you are asking again, why it is not moved.
When pointed at previous answer, you start us accusing of starting this without rules and improvising.
Of course everyone wants this and that. That is why I stated that this is not a final version. Of course we started by something and did not did the whole thing, because it would take several months. We have a lives to live too.
Indian and Nepalese ancients were linked to India and Nepal only because of the lack of a clear separation between Antique coinage and Medieval coinage. I said I'm already trying to work with their referees to decide a way we should split listings (or merge any concerned files) to definitely allow these ancients to be moved in Antiques. The actual situation of these listings is provisional only.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
There will be more improvements. 
Thanks for Austria proposition. 
Can we go back to country list already? 
But Chomp-master is right. We are working on it and we are not robots.