Names of currencies and denominations [solved]

This is for @Xavier or maybe a catalog administrator…

I am translating to Spanish the currencies and denominations related with “peseta”, but I have doubts.

I saw some “peseta” and “pound” in translation pages of currencies and denomination (in English):

Legend:

• Currencies
  • Denominations

• 142 • ESP • espagne → Peseta (1868-2001)
  • 1470 • 142 → 1 Centimo
  • 2091 • 142 → 2 Centimos
  • 315 • 142 → 1 Peseta
  • 1990 • 142 → 2 Pesetas
• 2111 • perou → Peseta (1880-1882)
  • 12886 • 2111 → ½ Real = ¼ Peseta
  • 5973 • 2111 → 1 Peseta
  • 6038 • 2111 → 5 Pesetas
• 10376 • ESP • espagne_guerre-civile → Peseta (1936-1939)
  • 8681 • 10376 → 5 Centimos
  • 2076 • 10376 → 1 Peseta
• 328 • guinee_equatoriale → Peseta (1969-1975)
  • 3343 • 328 → 1 Peseta Guineana
  • 2108 • 328 → 5 Pesetas Guineanas
• 487 • EHP • sahara_occidental → Peseta (1975-date)
  • 2058 • 487 → 1 Peseta
  • 2059 • 487 → 2 Pesetas
• 1365 • tonga → Tongan Pound (1921-1967)
  • 57088 • 1365 → 1 Pound
• 222 • royaume-uni → Pound sterling (1158-1970)
  • 54637 • 222 → 1 Pound
• 419 • jamaique → Pound (1822-1969)
  • 47619 • 419 → 1 Pound

I assume these text are in the language of the coin because were created when the values were text fields. Values are now language-independent fields and new guidelines apply: https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-currency-in-the-catalogue-194.html

Names in the Numista languages are:

• 142 • ESP • espagne
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_peseta
  (FR) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_espagnole
  (ES) Peseta española, or peseta https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta
• 2111 • perou
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_peseta
  (FR) Peseta péruvienne https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.70234/2015.70234.Catalogue-De-Monnates-Et-Medailles-1911_djvu.txt
  (ES) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_peruana
• 10376 • ESP • espagne_guerre-civile
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_peseta
  (FR) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_espagnole
  (ES) Peseta española, or peseta https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta
• 328 • guinee_equatoriale
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_Guinean_peseta
  (FR) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_de_Guinée_équatoriale
  (ES) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_ecuatoguineana
• 487 • EHP • sahara_occidental
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahrawi_peseta
  (FR) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_sahraouie
  (ES) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peseta_saharaui
• 1365 • tonga
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongan_pound
  (FR) Livre du Tonga
  (ES) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libra_tongana
• 222 • royaume-uni
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_sterling
  (FR) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livre_sterling
  (ES) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libra_esterlina
• 419 • jamaique
  (EN) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_pound
  (FR) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livre_jamaïcaine
  (ES) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libra_jamaiquina

Doubts/questions:

1. What should we use in currencies: full name (Jamaican Pound) or short name (Pound)?
2. What should we use in denominations: full name (1 Jamaican Pound) or short name (1 Pound)?
3. In other translation pages, the items have associated Wikidada IDs (e.g. in compositions, or issuing entities). Is the currencies database ready for add Wikidata IDs?

I did not find any about this in the help article mentioned.

Excellent question!

Personnally I think the short version is enough, as currencies are set per countries already.

Would be weird imo to indicate “french franc” everywhere for Franc in France, for instance

Compendium

Would be weird imo to indicate “french franc” everywhere for Franc in France, for instance

Or “Spanish peseta”🤪

Seriously, “franco francés” (French franc), “marco alemán” (German mark) or “dólar estadounidense” (United States dollar) does not sound bad to me, but “peseta española” (Spanish peseta) sound “a litte bad” to me because I am Spanish. But… What does a Chilean, an Argentinian, a Guinean or a Sahrawi think?

In the same way, “French franc” sound bad to you because you are French… What does a CFA franc user, a Swiss, a Canadian, a Guinean, or a Comorian think?

But it is true that seeing the country in the name of the currency on the lists of that country may seem estrange.

Compendium

Personnally I think the short version is enough, as currencies are set per countries already.

It is difficult… maybe can use the full name in the currency and the short name in the denomination.

In any case, whether if we use short names for currencies and denominations, or full names only in the currency (I think using full names in all is too much, and using full names only in the denominations has not sense), the decision should be included in the guidelines.

Ehm, Deutsche Mark is literally German Mark. It's the official name even when not talking about something that could indicate other Mark currencies.

It is urgent to clarify because of new languages are or will be added to Numista, and currencies and denominations will be translated.

I saw the FAQ articles related to this topic:

• https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-currency-in-the-catalogue-194.html
  It say the English side use the Oxford English Dictionary and Wiktionary.com (but Wiktionary.com is not clear: use full name or short names in different currencies).
• https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-denomination-in-the-catalogue-206.html
  It seems to say that the short name is used in denominations.

Anyway we now have four languages (and two more coming soon), these FAQ are not clear… and currencies and denominations are already being translated!

I do not know if this is being discussed at this moment on the admin forum.

How much time is going to be wasted trying to decide on what the “correct” translations are for names that don't need translating? Leave them in their real form and let's get on with something useful.

ceh2019

How much time is going to be wasted trying to decide on what the “correct” translations are for names that don't need translating? Leave them in their real form and let's get on with something useful.

Please, when hunting opportunities to complain about Admin work, make sure at least to read first what the topic is about ^^

This thread has nothing to do with local versus english names, it's about long versus short currency names ;-)

davidhs

It is urgent to clarify because of new languages are or will be added to Numista, and currencies and denominations will be translated.

 

I did read the comments, hence my comment.

ceh2019

davidhs

It is urgent to clarify because of new languages are or will be added to Numista, and currencies and denominations will be translated.

 

I did read the comments, hence my comment.

Yes, translated by translators for new languages of Numista website, like Dutch, Italian, Portuguese etc.

Because if we go for long currency names (like examples of this thread: Tongan pound, Sahrawi peseta, etc), maybe you don't know it, but national adjectives are not universal: Tongan and Sahrawi are english, Tongienne and Sahraouie are french, etc etc

It's why translators, who don't want to do the work twice, want to know beforehand if we should go for long or short currency names in both currency title and denominations list; which is the topic of this thread.

Is it clearer now? I guess the urge to attack was stronger than intellectual honesty ^^

I don't appreciate being called dishonest. Please retract that. This discussion stems from the demand from the adminstrators to translate currency names (read the start of the opening post). If we kept the real names, the question wouldn't arise. Either the name includes the national adjective (e.g., Deutsche Mark) or it doesn't (in the vast majority of cases).

ceh2019

I don't appreciate being called dishonest. Please retract that. This discussion stems from the demand from the adminstrators to translate currency names (read the start of the opening post). If we kept the real names, the question wouldn't arise. Either the name includes the national adjective (e.g., Deutsche Mark) or it doesn't (in the vast majority of cases).

Well, I won't retract as I personnally don't appreciate see people polluting threads with sempiternal criticisms about how Numista would be badly managed; I'm not far from feeling harassed, to be transparent.

But to answer you: no, it's not as simple as “vast majority of currencies do not include national adjective”. Actually, most currencies have an official long name referenced by International Organization for Standardization. For instance what we simply call Dollar for USA issuer is the “United States Dollar”, which translate to “Dollar américain” in french, “Amerikaanse dollar” in Dutch, etc. The original post is precisely about the fact there are currently inconsistencies in our database, as we often use short names but not always, for instance “1 Peseta Guineana”. It's why translators need a guideline here. I personnally think we should go for short names, as most times issuer name just next to it is enough to understand which currency we're talking about. But we may need long names for some edge cases like when a country use a foreign currency.

If you don't realize how off-topic your intervention was, well, let's call it bad faith if you prefer :-)

Hello,

I prefer short names, without including the country name. I believe having long names (including the nationality) would lead to consistency issues, especially when considering older currencies.

The only exception where we should include the nationality is for countries which reuse the currency from another country, for example, Timor-Leste using the U. S. dollar. 

Xavier

I prefer short names, without including the country name. I believe having long names (including the nationality) would lead to consistency issues, especially when considering older currencies.

Ok. I did not take ancient currencies into account when I asked this.

So… we always use short names, without the country name (both in currencies and denominations), except:

Xavier

The only exception where we should include the nationality is for countries which reuse the currency from another country, for example, Timor-Leste using the U. S. dollar.

If this is a firm final decision, should be added to guidelines.

I found this, maybe this is the right article where add it: https://en.numista.com/help/general-guidelines-for-all-texts-186.html

and link to this in the others:

• https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-currency-in-the-catalogue-194.html
• https://en.numista.com/help/add-or-modify-a-denomination-in-the-catalogue-206.html

And… about this?

davidhs

In other translation pages, the items have associated Wikidada IDs (e.g. in compositions, or issuing entities). Is the currencies database ready for add Wikidata IDs?

davidhs

And… about this?

davidhs

In other translation pages, the items have associated Wikidada IDs (e.g. in compositions, or issuing entities). Is the currencies database ready for add Wikidata IDs?

The database currently doesn't allow Wikidata IDs to be attached to currencies. If you believe it can be useful, feel free to open a separate topic to discuss it.
For information, here is the list of currencies on Wikidata: https://query.wikidata.org/#%23%20Select%20all%20instances%20of%20%22currency%22%0ASELECT%20%3Fitem%20%3FitemLabel%0AWHERE%0A%7B%0A%20%20%3Fitem%20wdt%3AP31%20wd%3AQ8142.%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%7D

Xavier

davidhs

And… about this?

davidhs

In other translation pages, the items have associated Wikidada IDs (e.g. in compositions, or issuing entities). Is the currencies database ready for add Wikidata IDs?

The database currently doesn't allow Wikidata IDs to be attached to currencies. If you believe it can be useful, feel free to open a separate topic to discuss it.

I will do it! It can be useful for the translators (it is a quick access to the translation on Wikipedia).

Xavier

For information, here is the list of currencies on Wikidata: https://query.wikidata.org/#%23%20Select%20all%20instances%20of%20%22currency%22%0ASELECT%20%3Fitem%20%3FitemLabel%0AWHERE%0A%7B%0A%20%20%3Fitem%20wdt%3AP31%20wd%3AQ8142.%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%7D

I did not know this tool!

Xavier

Hello,

I prefer short names, without including the country name. I believe having long names (including the nationality) would lead to consistency issues, especially when considering older currencies.

The only exception where we should include the nationality is for countries which reuse the currency from another country, for example, Timor-Leste using the U. S. dollar. 

I certainly don't see the need to add the country name if that is already displayed close by on the page. Another reason to respect what's actually on the currencies comes from countries like Uruguay. The three most recent currencies are the Peso, Nuevo Peso and Peso Uruguayo. If all three get the word “Uruguayan” put in front of them, this is going to be rather confusing.

As I already said, I think too country name is not needed. In the example above, Uruguayan Peso should therefore be renamed simply Peso, as it currently is referenced under its long name. Thanks for spotting it!